The Gaming Den

So, character replacement is the in thing, and it seems more balanced, except that it means that any character who has a polymorph or wildshape ability can and will dump stat their abilities, because all the template versions suck even more.

I was thinking of a way (maybe not simpler) was to go through and create templates of various critters before hand, and attach them to spells. That way abilities that are transfered are already predefined before it happens in the game. Of course, that's not very exciting.

Idea one is to take the Ability Bonus from the animal/polymorph form and Ex abilities and just add them to the character. Hitpoints would not be recalculated from this, and poison/con damage would hit their hidden score. If you want, that actually even works without killing people to do their mental scores, too. However, this makes very strong critters and can kill characters since it's simple

Sparrow wrote:Speed: 10', 40' Fly
Size: Diminutive, Flying (+4 AC, +4 Hit, +4 Hide, -4 Grapple, x1/8 Capacity)
Size/Reach: 6" / None
Natural Weapons: Claw 1d2 + STR (Slicing)
Ability Scores: -5 Strength, -2 Constitution
Special Qualities:
Low-light Vision, Alertness, Weapon Finesse
No Fine Manipulators

My second idea for the stats was to add a percentage of the character's ability stat to the template. For the distance from 10 that the template is, the character gets to apply 10% less of their ability score. So at 10 they get 100%, but at 18 or 2 they only get 20% of their ability score. This represents a less linear score progression...

So for the above sparrow, it would have 10% of the character's Strength, 100% of the character's dexterity, and 8 + 20% of their Constitution.

This is just to make templates with a simple rule of thumb.

-Crissa

Recall the Dungeonmicon's two versions of Polymorph? I will admit that the template version seems kind of iffy, because losing all of your gear is quite likely to screw you something fierce.

Right. I'm just trying to generate forms in such a way that they interact with the character's stats.

It becomes troublesome (especially for the Druid) for there to be a character to not be paying the save cost for their primary stats.

-Crissa

Bonuses to stats don't interact with them? I think I'm missing something here.

Bonus stats?

What?

Use terms from the SRD, please, or define them. I don't know what you're saying.

The idea here is to make a simple formula so that a strong character stays strong when polymorphed, but is limited or augmented by the template. Their Ability Score actually matters, if only a little bit.

I also see my second formula failed.

-Crissa

Like this?

Dungeonomicon, Polymorph Version 2 wrote:

Lycanthropy
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Touch
Target: One Willing Creature
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude Negates (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes.

The shaman howled in rage and transformed into a wolverine.

The target assumes the appearance of a specific or generic animal or magical beast of small, medium, or large size. The target is effectively disguised, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate the genuine article. The target suffers no penalties to Disguise for assuming the visage of a different race or sex. The new form is unable to use normal equipment (all carried or worn items meld into the new form when the spell takes effect), and has whatever natural weapons the caster desires (to a maximum of 1 natural weapon per four levels). These natural weapons inflict an amount of damage appropriate for a magical beast of the new form's size. Any equipment the character had is subsumed into their new form.

• Small, Flying: - 90' flight speed (good), +4 Dex, -4 strength
  
• Small, Land – +2 Dex
  
• Small, Swimming – 60' swim speed
  
• Medium, Flying: - 60' flight speed (good), +2 Dex
  
• Medium, Land – 40' land speed, +2 Strength, +2 Natural Armor
  
• Medium, Swimming – 60' swim speed, +2 Strength, +2 Natural Armor
  
• Large, Flying: - 90' flight speed (average), +2 Dex, +4 strength, +1 Natural Armor
  
• Large, Land – +6 Strength, +5 Natural Armor
  
• Large, Swimming – 60' swim speed, +6 Strength, +4 Natural Armor
  

Kindof, but without the thinking of tactical forms ahead of time. To provide a system for creating those forms from monster entries in a standard way, even though it means a couple math steps before bringing them to the table.

That method makes for a very balanced list, but does not really ring with those who like lots of flavor text :P So I'm trying to avoid the arguments of 'ravens aren't strong enough to do that!' when your stats say one thing and the flavor says another.

-Crissa

Well, the list doesn't have a Tiny size option, so ravens would be difficult with just that spell. Unless you actually start doing stat replacement, transforming a fire giant into a raven is going to result in a too-strong raven.

Well, that's true. But that was just an example.

And turning a fire giant into a raven results in the same raven as turning a mouse into a raven.

The point is that the Druid pays for the one stat Wisdom while everyone else pays for Strength and Constitution.

-Crissa

And in that (Druid ignoring Str), I agree. But I don't really see the point.

Making a 'template' to modify monsters will result in the very undesirable effect of players combing through books, and I really don't think you can get balanced by making a set formula because the monsters never followed a set formula.

Making a list of pre-established forms is going to be an extremely time-consuming endeavor, and I really must wonder, why? What is the benefit in having detailed lists like that? The statistical differences between monsters of the same 'role' are both varied and forgettable. The game isn't specialized in polymorphing escapades, so I don't see the point in having all that info in order to get more 'flavour'; which I don't really see as actually doing that.

EDIT: As an aside, how does a fire giant and a mouse give you the same raven when you use what you've been proposing (which was the point of my reference)?

It doesn't, virg. That's the point.

But in default, it does.

Yeah, people can still comb books. But as long as the template goes through the cleaner correctly and the ability which is sourcing the template is limited correctly, it shouldn't be such a problem.

-Crissa

Crissa wrote:That method makes for a very balanced list, but does not really ring with those who like lots of flavor text So I'm trying to avoid the arguments of 'ravens aren't strong enough to do that!' when your stats say one thing and the flavor says another.

The impression I was getting here was that you want a system that counters the 'raven' argument (which makes everyone the same), which contradicts your most recent agreement. My apologies for being thick here.

Let me go backtrack to what I really want to know. How is the game more improved by your proposition as compared to simply using the Dungeonomicon's Polymorph rules?

It's not, unless you like more variety.

It's just easier to change the list of forms than the actual spell for DMs who believe that WotC is inviolate. Why? Because DMs already were left to adjudicate each form by WotC, so changing the forms is not 'as much' a house rule as changing the text of the spell.

-Crissa